Anime Gone Bad

[Kao]

Anime has evolved a lot over the years. It started with simple animations like Astro Boy, but slowly the quality of the animation began to improve. By the 1980's we were enjoying anime of much higher quality, such as Akira, Robotech, Vampire Hunter D, and Dragonball. Then came the 90's, probably the best years in anime's life. Even early on in the decade we were getting goodness like Ranma 1/2 and Dragonball Z. The animation and audio were of much, much higher quality than ever before, and things just got better as the decade wore on. In the mid 90's there was an explosion of quality animation such as Tenchi Muyo, Ah! My Goddess, Gundam Wing, and many others. By the end of the decade, studios were putting out masterpieces like Cowboy BeBop. Animation techniques, soundtracks, and dubs/subs had reached a pinnacle. Anime had become mainstream in America, probably due to Cartoon Network's Toonami block. You could go into any video or music store and find isles of high quality anime and corresponding soundtracks.

Sadly, anime has taken a nose dive in terms of quality as of late. Almost every anime that reaches the American public is crap. The animation looks like it was drawn by a computer. It simply doesn't look animated anymore. The characters are static, and the animation has been cleaned up so much it doesn't even look real any more. In addition, artists in Japan have started to cram high frame rate cel-shaded 3D animations into their cartoons, which are gaudy and painfully out of place when put into these low frame count animes. How many Rave Master's and Gundam Seed's do we have to deal with per every FLCL and Wolfs Rain?

[LeltheHuggles]

I'll agree with several points.

Many new animes I looked over with a glance and go "meh". I mean... they're sorta worth my time but then again they're not really worth the effort...

However, I think one should keep out a keen eye. There are MANY good stories and series cropping up, just that people pass them over for the more popular series (One Piece, Naruto, etc.) and forget about such wonderful works as 20th Century Boys and Monster.

~Lel-Kun

[Keropium]

And then there are some that copy off of the anime style. (Totally Spies)
Is that even considered an anime?

[Legendary Mike99]

It has an annoying theme song so its sorta like anime.

[Keropium]

XD

[Kao]

I call American shows that try to mimic Anime "Americanime"

That's your word for the day.

[vgamer1]

Teen Titans is a major case of "Americanime"!!

[Goddess Din]

And that other semi-anime, I think is called "Martin Mystery".


But anime is not that bad...yet, okay, is true that some people don't see anime beyond Naruto, Inuyasha, One Piece and other classical-shounen animes; but it hasn't hit bottom yet, there are still some kick-ass animes that have gotten unnoticed and shadowed by the popular animes, like "Full Metal Alchemist" (great story, awesome characters, good animation), Matantei Lokie Ragnarok, Weiss Kreuss Gluhen (incredible animation).

All those are fairly new, but anime hasn't hit bottom yet.

[PrincessCordelia]

Dubbies are terrible

But what really cheeses me off is that people blame the network and not the company who recieved the rights to the anime and edited it.

I like Love Hina, and I'm planning to buy a couple volumes of manga soon

[Kao]

The real issue, I feel, is with the poor animation quality I see so often in the stuff that actually reaches mainstream America.

[MaLink]

Hmmm... that almost looks like an essay written for school. :)

[Keropium]

OMG


Dumbass.

[Goddess Din]

Because it was random, spammy, and absolutly disgusting, the post was removed.



In any case...has anyone seen "Duel Monsters" it was brought to Cartoon Network in my country and damn...it has so many anime clichès that I don't know where to start.

[Keropium]

I


HATE


THAT


SHOW.

[Imnotanalien]

Because it was random, spammy, and absolutly disgusting, the post was removed.



In any case...has anyone seen "Duel Monsters" it was brought to Cartoon Network in my country and damn...it has so many anime clichès that I don't know where to start.


actually its called dual masters. plus its making fun of anime.

Why do you think its so fileld up with cliches?

[Goddess Din]

I


HATE


THAT


SHOW.


Well, my bad my bad, is just that I even avoid the commercials of that anime so I must have a bare idea of that show.


But damn...I hate that show!!! It has the stereotypical tough-kid-with-spiky-hair hero, the nerdy shy-guy that tags along with him and his stereotypical glasses, then the girl that is his friend and she is sooo dying for him. ALSO IS A CARD GAME! Making a rip-off of Yu Gi Oh (though I might be wrong in this one) and the enemies he has are also so cliché, they are always acting so mean and tough to make the protagonist look more like a hero, zero character development. And there is always the mighty card-hero that the protagonist aims to become like...and the duels he always wins just by a brink of luck making him always right with the morale of the story.

[PrincessCordelia]

Yep, its the new trend: Try and rip-off Yu-gi-oh and see how much money we can make!

If you want a really funny anime, try Excel Saga. Watch it or the Menchi gets it.

[The Teej]

Just like Jobs in the Games Industry, things are sure to pick up later on even if its hit rock bottom right now.

A Little hamer on the thumb style annoyance is that they've recently bought DBGT to GBA video. Now if DBGT wasn't crap enough, now its gone to HFIL x 100. Its gone the way of UK/USA Escaflowne.... making absolutely no f**king sense. I watch the first ep...and its like Pan Trunks and Chibi-Goku fighting in what appears to be Gill's Home-planet, and they have flash backs of past episodes... I already know the outcome of this SLUT(Stupidly Lame and Ultimately Trampy) Re-vamp of an Anime, so there's no point in even watching it on VBA with a Free ROM.

On to the subject at hand though... its stuff like Cinemanga thats making Anime and Manga as a whole go down the toilet. If only there was more good Animes like Naruto and DBZ.. lol.

[ch4ot1c]

Yep, its the new trend: Try and rip-off Yu-gi-oh and see how much money we can make!

If you want a really funny anime, try Excel Saga. Watch it or the Menchi gets it.


yay for rippin off yu-gi-oh.....yea... B)

[zelda_master64]

ya.....DBZ started to suck near the end though, started getting repetitive....But yea, i HATE crappy "anime" like Duel Masters, yugioh, rave masters.....blargh!!!!DIE! :constipated:
anyhoo, they need to translate more of those actual animes that are sitting in Japan....Adult swim, my doorway to teen-aged japan, lol

[Keropium]

Adult swim, my doorway to teen-aged japan, lol


A toast...
To Adult Swim!
XD

[ShinjiKun]

yeah, I agree, the anime style is no longer quite as good, but I like ones like .hack//sign that have really good animation but still retain good anime style, and some shows like Super milk chan that look nothing like your typical anime

[Nightmare]

Actually I don't like the western style of Anime we've created. Like teen titans. In my opinion that show is really, really stupid.IN my opinion. So nobody get offended. It just doesn't look natural. But yeah Full Metal Alchemist is A great series.

[Kao]

Americanime, as I call it, is pretty weak. It's just American companies trying to mimic the anime-style expressions in their own shows... and they don't even do it right most of the time. I'm no anime purist by any means, but I really feel Americanime is just plain unoriginal.

FMA is pretty cool. I didn't like it very much at first, but I've really started getting into now. My all time favorite anime may still be Cowboy Bebop, though ;)

[Ben_on_the_edge]

I call American shows that try to mimic Anime "Americanime"

That's your word for the day.

NO! That is WRONG!

The word of the day is LEGS!

Now lets go home and spread the word.

[zaketo]

Please stop making fun of dual masters.

Its jsut a complete show making fun of the very essence of anime.

Why do you think it's ripping off every single anime ever? The cards are a big Yu-gi-oh parody hint.

[Jedi_Master_Link]

I don't like Duel Masters, (though I've never really watched a whole show) My cousin does though...
But, I do like Yu-gi-oh and .hack//sign

[forces_of_light]

Yes, Duel Masters is a parody of the 'big name' anime, but the fact that they actually released a card game based on the one in the anime means that Duel Masters in not a creative attempt to show the clches of anime, but more of a money ploy. Not that it wouldn't have been, even if they hadn't released the card game.

I wanted to get the .hack//SIGN complete collection, but it cost 150$... I had it right in my hands... :(

About the quality of anime, it doesn't really matter. For every three bad animes, there's one good anime that's worth wading through the bad ones to find.

[zaketo]

Thats because unlike web parodies, this one costs thousands of dolalrs to stay on the air.

[ShinjiKun]

Evangelion is in my opinion the pinnacle of anime in the 90s, a true representation of the golden age

[Keropium]

I wanted to get the .hack//SIGN complete collection, but it cost 150$... I had it right in my hands... :(

Hmm...
And .hack is only for PS2?
:constipated:

[Dark Falz]

yeah but america killed anime and no offence or anything.

[ShinjiKun]

I wanted to get the .hack//SIGN complete collection, but it cost 150$... I had it right in my hands... :(

Hmm...
And .hack is only for PS2?
:constipated:


The games at least

[forces_of_light]

I wanted to get the .hack//SIGN complete collection, but it cost 150$... I had it right in my hands... :(

Hmm...
And .hack is only for PS2?
:constipated:


I speak of the anime, you fool. If they had a complete box of the games, I'd be in heaven (even though I haven't a PS2).


Thats because unlike web parodies, this one costs thousands of dolalrs to stay on the air.


And yet hundreds of other shows manage to do it without releasing a card game based on themselves.


yeah but america killed anime and no offence or anything.


No, America didn't kill anime. If anything, anime is more popular in America now than it has ever been. It's just the bad translaters like 4Kids take a good anime and wrip out all the good stuff and deem it worthy of airing. There's plenty of good anime out there, you just have to find it. Examples: Evangelion, Witch Hunter Robin, .hack//SIGN, Trigun, FLCL, Cowboy Bebop, the list goes on and on.

[zaketo]

Well those other shows dont need card games cause people actually watch them.

[Keropium]

Detective Conan!

[Sobaro]

True i hate amercian anime. Just so stupid.

Like teen titans and all that crap.

I like anime like cowboy bebop and outlaw star and older anime.

Dual masters is just another stupid kiddy card game show that makes u want to stab ur eyes out.

Acutally dual masters is copying a card game called magic the gathering.

but yeah amercianime (if thats how u spell ur word lol) sucks.

I just call them cartoons not even anime.

[Keropium]

Outlaw Star.

[zaketo]

Hey...Outlaw star was cool.

[Keropium]

I know.
I just felt like saying it.
O.o

[Nobody]

IMO .hack//sign took a dive after the first episode.

(Btw, you might wanna check out the Outlaw Star Manga and see how incredibly mild the anime is)

[Sobaro]

yep got all outlaw star episodes even the secret episode never on t.v (mainly because of mild nudity) :huh:

[zaketo]

howcome every anime ahs nudity? is japan full of perverts?

Every anime has some nudity in it.

.......Cept for the Pokemon....they came close to it.

[Keropium]

Because everyone likes nudity.
:rolleyes:

[zaketo]

Tokyo GODFATHERS RULES.

Tis a weird psychotic movie,

[t.z0n3]

Teen Titans is a major case of "Americanime"!!

Ah...no...it's not. Teen Titans was an actual comic printed by DC to explain Robin's crime busting after Batman.
Sry to burst your bubble! :lol:

[zaketo]

Dude they made it an americanime.

[Legendary Mike99]

I'm liking the way it mocks it. :D

[zaketo]

:huh: dude tis a cartoon style.....get over it!

[t.z0n3]

Yes, they did MAKE it that. My point was it didnt begin that way. That's all. You are right that they did MAKE it that.

[zaketo]

We dont care what it was before. We hate what it is now.

[Nobody]

yep got all outlaw star episodes even the secret episode never on t.v (mainly because of mild nudity)* :huh:


...the manga has full blown sex scenes.

[zaketo]

:blink:

[t.z0n3]

...!?
That is screwed up...anyway, sry if I did anything wrong...

[Lel]

...!?
That is screwed up...


What's screwed up?

~Lel-Kun

[t.z0n3]

Look up a few posts to Nobodys post...sheesh...talk about AO rated...

[Lel]

Look up a few posts to Nobodys post...sheesh...talk about AO rated...


Meh.

Beserk
Tenjo Tenge
Monster
Outlaw Star
Fire Candy

All which are non-hentai mangas with explict sex scenes, and that's just off the top of my head. And trust me, they are intense. I'm not talking about romantic love making in shojou.

And I've seen worse in manga. *shrug* I guess you people haven't really been exposed to some of the more... interesting mangas.

~Lel-Kun

[Sobaro]

lol ive seen the..... interesting manga... its .... interesting? if you say

[t.z0n3]

You people and "interesting" things...you're all a bunch of perverts! :P

[Lel]

There's more to those mangas than sex.

~Lel-Kun

[t.z0n3]

Yes I know...I read Naruto and .hack//, and I know love and such is omportant to the storyline...but still...why can't they skip those parts?

[Lel]

You cannot compare them to Naruto or .hack.

Those are extremely mild manga. The storyline and situations do not call for such things as those.

~Lel-Kun

[t.z0n3]

*sigh*
That is my point.
I don't understand how you can look at those and say "mild" for "manga".
What you are describing must be hentai, or at least the equivalent. Which are "they" anyway?

[Lel]

Sorry, but I can't help but laughing at your post if you seriously think that Naruto and .hack//sign can be labelled as gorey.

Yes I know Naruto has it's fair share of blood but the last tiem I checked I never saw a man have his stomach ripped open, intenstines ripped out then having two swords shoved into his head.* In .hack//sign or any .hack series I have never seen heads flying through the air like raindrops with limbs be cleaved off and blood gushing from from empty eye sockets.

And as for what series I think is bloody/gorey...
Tenjo Tenge
Beserk
Hellsing (for an anime it had quite a bit of blood, the manga appears gorey too)
Ichi the Killer (ughh disgusting)

Off the top of my head though.* There's a million other that are just as if not more explictly violent.

As for sexual stuff, Naruto has little more than a bit of fan service.* I've seen worse from Inuyasha.

I suppose you can say that these are somewhat of an equivalent.* The big difference though is that sex is not the focus of the story.* It is however used to more brutally illustrate the story.

Naruto was made for kids/teenagers so of course they'd be mild compared to Beserk that is aimed more for adults (not as in PORN OMG WTF!!!11111!1! but as in more mature).

Beserk is a prime example (hence why I mention it alot).* There are a lot of battles and wars in the manga.* Do you know what happens to women after a battle(past kind of battles, not really modern day)?* The opposing soldiers raped them.* It's not a pretty or a moral thing but Beserk uses it to protray a more gritty realism.* That's what people did.* Naruto doesn't need such things because the manga isn't really suited for that.* In Beserk however it is very dark and morbid with lot's of death, mutilation, and rape.

(I had some pictures uploaded by computer [poop]ted out on my and froze halfway).

EDIT: Whoops, heh.

~Lel-Kun

[t.z0n3]

I understnad all that. I don't think they are at all "gorey". My question is how you can justify the fact that they are better than hentai style comics if they embody the same types of styles. If you cannot answer that question within one post, then I suggest that we stop cramming the forums with these types of posts, as I am sure moderators and admins will not take kindly to such arguments, am I right?

[zaketo]

Hentai= Sex, sex, nothing but sex, sometimes rarely clothes, but mostly sex.

The things hes talking about= Fighting, ship battles, really long storylines, blood, and sometimes you may get sex.


See the difference?

[Lel]

Zaketo summed it up pretty nicely.

I don't read Beserk purely for the enjoyment of sex scenes (some do I'm sure though.)

Beserk has a story. There's character development, the plot is more than just Loser Guy A wants to pork Hot Chick B but ends up porking Hot Chick A.

And this is not an argument, I view arguments as more aggressive. This is more of a debate/discussion and I don't think the mods will be too angry (the topic wasn't going anywhere and our discussion is more intelligent than what was already here anyways).

Hentai is pretty much wank material.

Beserk is not. I read it for the epic feeling, the awesome characters, great weapons, battles, story, monsters, etc. Sex is very far down the list for one of the reasons why I read it.

~Lel-Kun

[Keropium]

*watches in silence*

[forces_of_light]

t.z0n3, I don't think you understand the subtly of Japanese animation genres. Unlike the American rating system, where if a comic has nudity in it, it's labeled as pornographic, the Japanese mangas can still have nudity in them and not be hentai. Case-in-point: Chobits/Love Hina. Both have bits and pieces of nudity (though in Love Hina, the nipples are miraculously not there), but the point of that nudity is to create a situation that will further the plot and/or make you laugh your ass off. Hentai is all about sex, usually without any inkling of plot or realism.

In Naruto, the gore is there to make you realize that it's not the stereotypical kid-ninja manga. Among many other reasons, this is why Naruto has become my favorite manga overall. My point is that, sometimes, you have to show the things many people would consider 'unappropriate' to make your reader like the manga more. Without the gore, Naruto would be nothing, because it's those moments when people are mutilated that make you realize that they live in an imperfect world where pain lurks around every corner. DBZ showed plenty of pain, but the characters ALWAYS recovered in some form or another, and eventually beat the hell out of the bad guy, who is ambiguously evil. That's another thing I like about Naruto, the evil characters aren't entirely evil. Instead of having the people that want to blow up the world, like Cell, they have the characters that are doing their job, like Zabuza and Haku, who are actual characters (and are the most fascinating in the series so far, I think).

On the other side of the spectrum, a purely gory manga is usually crap. The thing that makes Naruto so good is that it isn't constant gore, it's a gradual build up from one almost-a-death-scene to the next. Just like with manga that has sex scenes, it's there to show an intamacy between two characters, or how the world was back in the days of old. It's not there to make you horny, it's there to further the plot.

Thus, the line between the mild genres and the hentai genre.

[t.z0n3]

Ah.
MY bad for wasting the forums space with my stupidity. Do you acccept my apology?

[zaketo]

That is up to the council heretic.

[t.z0n3]

?
Are you referring to ME as heretic? :blink:

[zaketo]

Naw I just like quoting halo.

[Lel]

You're apology is accepted and your stupidty is very welcomed.

:)

~Lel-Kun

[t.z0n3]

Ah ok. And my stupidity shall be welcomed? WOW!
SWEET!

[Keropium]

That was a long post, FooL. O.o

[Lel]

You're kidding me, three paragraphs?

~Lel-Kun

[t.z0n3]

You should read Oni Musha's posts in XYZ. They're like 2 word doc pages long.

[Keropium]

You're kidding me, three paragraphs?

~Lel-Kun


For him, yes.

[forces_of_light]

Obviously, you've never read any of my serious/RP posts.

[Keropium]

Obviously, no.

[ch4ot1c]

yay for speed reading

[Lel]

Obviously, you've never read any of my serious/RP posts.


Link?

~Lel-Kun

[t.z0n3]

YOu DO NOT WANT THAT LINK. PLEASE EDIT. :constipated:

[zaketo]

Caps lock problems?

[pimpin_link_069]

anime cant go bad i like to much accept for that stupid show with all the things and stuff but i like some anime i guess

[forces_of_light]

Obviously, you've never read any of my serious/RP posts.


Link?

~Lel-Kun


The only one I can get to without digging through old topics is on another forum, but whatever.

http://s6.invisionfree.com/XYZ_Anime_RPG_forum/index.php?showtopic=287

[Lel]

Quite long, though not as thick as I expected.

Anyways, on topic, the thing that irks me about recent anime is that it's repetitive, cliche, and boring.

You see the same themes, same character archtypes, same plots, etc. used all over again. However the series tries to decieve you into thinking it's new and different by making the air shiney and the animation flashy (not synonomous with good).

Bleh.

~Lel-Kun

[ifm2181]

Necro.

Lol at this. What do you think about anime circa 2004 now, Kao?

[Colonel Farts]

anime still sucks, news at 11

[prooker]

And now back to Butt Raiders 12

[f]

Necro.

Lol at this. What do you think about anime circa 2004 now, Kao?

It's all most likely still an issue. But so few people actually watch the anime that's shown on TV, that it may not matter as much what crap is being shown on there. People go on the internet and find anime that they WANT to watch and thereby avoid all the shitty stuff.

Albeit, the plots may not be what they used to. The whole "daily life" thing seems to be gaining popularity.

[ifm2181]

Moe/slice of life is more than just too common now. It's really to the point where there simply are no shows with more external plots anymore.
Japan does have a history of sticking to its guns (see, same old shit) to the point of suicide, so we'll see if it happens to our beloved industry.

[f]

I have a feeling that gundam/mecha stuff might be on its way to taking over again. Hopefully not like, weird cel-shaded stuff like SD Gundam or whatever the **** it was.

But yeah, the whole daily life, not really any plot thing needs a break. A long break because it is overkill now.

[Fireyo]

Yea! more giant robots!

If you want another example of Japan being repetitive just look at the Japanese video game industry.

[Gatsby]

People act like the mainstream anime industry is the only one that has mass stagnation in it's most commercial products. In reality, the same trends can be found in modern mainstream music, modern mainstream comics, movies, etc etc. There are 500 Eat Pray Loves for every Inception and there are 500 Nickelbacks for every Pink Floyd.

To not get shit constantly shoved into your face(which is impossible when dealing with video games at least), you need to be able to do some research and find things on your own. There are hundreds of artists out there who don't have a developer or a producer backing all of their actions, and despite that, they make excellent products because their hardwork overcomes any financial issues they might face.

This is why we're seeing games like Cave Story prove to be better than 90% of what's on the market. You'll never find any record label supporting bands that have the musicianship and experimental qualities of Pink Floyd, but look around for five minutes and you can find plenty of post rock bands that are going great things with experimentation and are also quality musicians.

The fact of the matter is that the videogame, movie, and music industry are mostly based on commerce. Even films that aren't made for money still need to make money to at least pay for themselves and there's a constant struggle that needs to be found between making these million dollar products and actually guaranteeing any return on them. We can demonize producers for doing things like tampering with the work of artists, but to them, a movie is an investment.

What's more asinine is claiming that the Western front is supposed to be better at that. There's no better example of complete lack of inspiration and stagnation than the ones that can be found in the industry who's most notable games include Halo and Gears of War. Even games like Uncharted which make great technical strides in gameplay are still giving us generic, albeit likable heroes. Lack of innovation is something that exists in every industry because most of these industries run on the money of idiots who buy their products. Innovation may be appreciated by critics, and may find note in history books, but more often than not, it also puts your product on the fast track to the recycle bin.

[symuun]

As I see it, since we already have Pink Floyd and Cave Story, we don't need other things anyway. :ooo: Human culture is complete.

[Gatsby]

Human culture won't be complete until we have a second Cave Story game staring Roger Waters.

[Muffin Mage]

Yeah, pretty much everything you'll find commercially is stagnant. That's because consumer capitalism has a nasty habit of integrating and absorbing any truly revolutionary stories or ideas into its system. So, for instance, where Charlie Parker was a brilliant innovator in the 40s, by the 60s, everyone played bebop like him warming up, and most musicians had long since rejected his style as quaint. Pink Floyd may have been brilliant 50 years ago, but now they are cultural background noise. And so forth and so on. Nihil novem sub sole.

[prooker]

You can criticize the mainstream everything as much as you want but responsibility also goes to the consumer. When Hannah Montana records sell like hotcakes who are you going to find next? The next Hannah Montana or the next something else?

Anyways there are tons of great everything outside of the mainstream (also some in the mainstream) you just have to look for it. Plus with viral phenomena people have certainly found great internet artist they like and made record companies/what ever else pay attention.

Then again you could always just start your own band

[prooker]

Anyways it's all about electronic music these days, and you can argue whether that's the experimentation you were talking about or not

[Muffin Mage]

I mean, the whole process of something revolutionary becoming blase is older than dirt. There are records of about thirty Thebaids, that is, epic poems about the city of Thebes and Oedipus' sons. Only one is extant, and it kicks ass, but that's neither here nor there. There are also about 50 or 60 Argonauticas, and two are extant- one by Apollonius of Rhodes, who rejected the skeptical realism of Hellenistic poetry in favor of taking the old legends at face value, and one by this guy Valerius Flaccus, who I haven't bothered reading yet. I don't know where I was going with this, except maybe that if you wait long enough, all the bullshit will be forgotten in favor of stuff that's actually worthwhile.

[Gatsby]

Yeah, pretty much everything you'll find commercially is stagnant. That's because consumer capitalism has a nasty habit of integrating and absorbing any truly revolutionary stories or ideas into its system. So, for instance, where Charlie Parker was a brilliant innovator in the 40s, by the 60s, everyone played bebop like him warming up, and most musicians had long since rejected his style as quaint. Pink Floyd may have been brilliant 50 years ago, but now they are cultural background noise. And so forth and so on. Nihil novem sub sole.

You can criticize the mainstream everything as much as you want but responsibility also goes to the consumer. When Hannah Montana records sell like hotcakes who are you going to find next? The next Hannah Montana or the next something else?

Anyways there are tons of great everything outside of the mainstream (also some in the mainstream) you just have to look for it. Plus with viral phenomena people have certainly found great internet artist they like and made record companies/what ever else pay attention.

Then again you could always just start your own band

The consumer does have input on what succeeds and what doesn't, but the industry is what gives them what to choose from. It's the industry that has the marketing teams that can spurn success or not.

If the public standard weren't so low, the standard of most movies wouldn't be so low. I feel like the majority of Americans don't want to spend time thinking about a movie's message or dissecting the brilliance of how certain camera angles enhance scenes through pure technique alone. They want instant gratification and a complete lack of challenge in their material.

I critique the Mainstream industries because most of the time, they cannot even produce good enough films to meet their own standards. It's possible to make a movie that's a product in the sense that it's meant to give you nothing but fun, and yet, movies like The Expendables are Rambo IV are so bogged down by shitty script writing and half baked directorial visions that they never achieve what they want to do.

Contrast that to a film like Piranha 3D, which is also a product designed to make money, and you find that Piranha is actually clever and glorious and surprisingly well done. It's still trash, it's still pure entertainment, but it actually succeeds in being entertainment instead of some gigantic multi million dollar mess.

The fact is that most studios don't worry about making quality films because they know they don't have to. They know that there are enough people out there with terrible taste in movies who can be convinced to buy their movie thanks to a one liner/explosion filmed trailer.

There used to be a time when knowing which art was good or not was a good thing. Now the majority of the public thinks that having standards makes you an elitist. If you don't like Transformers 2, it's because you hate movies that are popular and can't have fun. If you like foreign films, then you're just a douchey hipster ******.

People who have no opinions on art feel offended by people who have opinions on it because they think that if other people are putting more thought into something than they are, that they're just trying to look smart for the sake of it.

It's possible that culture has been the same throughout history, and that the people who knew what they were talking about were the minority compared to the ignorant public, but hell, how can you not romantisize older cultures when you have no culture of your own to cling to? How can you create your own culture in a world where corporations and media run the culture?

[prooker]

There's also something to be said about instant gratification

Not everyone is trying to see the next "Pulp Fiction"

God knows how many chick flicks I've enjoyed watching

[Gatsby]

Tarantino and his films are all big examples of films that serve mostly as great entertainment versus great art. Tarantino is an amazing director and writer, but Inglorious Basterds is probably his only original screenplay that has a real plot. His films are instant gratification, and that just makes films like Transformers 2 all the more inexcusable.

Chick flicks aren't bad by definition anyway. All of Woody Allen's films are chick flicks, and only a good half of them are complete shit. Even when they are, it's not because he just threw Renee Zelwinger as the lead and made her trip for two hours, it's because he took risks and they didn't pay off.

Then there are movies like Love Actually that are actually hilarious and well written.

You know, it's possible to get entertainment and joy from things that suck. I ****ing love the Dragonball movie and would never hesitate to watch it again, but I know it's shit.

The fact is that there are so many good movies out there, that you'd never need to watch a bad movie. There aren't "thoughtful" movies and "thoughtless" movies. I just think that if people actually wanted to use their brain, they'd find that Nicolas Sparks is a complete joke and asshat and that Woody Allen is brilliant. That Micheal Bay is shit and that Tarantino is brilliant. It should be Micheal Bay fighting for scraps while Tarantino reveals in his multi million dollar profits. Instead, it's Nicolas Sparks and Micheal Bay who are prospering, while the people who have shit to offer are struggling to get by, and that's bullshit.

[Colonel Farts]

GATSBY BROUGHT UP INSTANT GRATIFICATION DUDE

[freeblooper]

I liked the part in badboys 2 where they drive a humvee down a mountain through a village more than any scene in Pulp Fiction

That is why he makes the big bucks

also the part in the rock where nick cage gets blown up was pretty cool

Tarantino Could do better I just haven't seen him go as big

[Gatsby]

In conclusion, Freebooter is the face of everything that is wrong with America.

[prooker]

Tarantino and his films are all big examples of films that serve mostly as great entertainment versus great art. Tarantino is an amazing director and writer, but Inglorious Basterds is probably his only original screenplay that has a real plot. His films are instant gratification, and that just makes films like Transformers 2 all the more inexcusable.

Gotta disagree with you on this one

I thought pretty much all Tarantino films I've seen save for maybe Jackie Brown have plenty of underlying layers you can analyze the **** out of if you want

I guess it's also one of those things where someone with "high standards" can go in and enjoy for a multitude of reasons that the casual film goer can also enjoy because guns violence e.t.c.

Plus Kill Bill had no real plot?

EDIT: Sometimes you just gotta take and enjoy your Humvee scenes man

[freeblooper]

In conclusion, Freebooter is the face of everything that is wrong with America.

I am sorry that I like it when Will Smith uses expensive cars to break things in spectacular fashion while Martin Lawrence mugs to the camera

I WANT TO SEE TARANTINO'S HUMVEE SCENE, IS IT IN INGLORIOUS BASTARDS?

I have been putting off seeing it for way too long

[Gatsby]

Kill Bill has the least plot out of any Tarantino film in existence. The fact that the entire film's narrative is driven by a checklist is a pretty big indication of that. It goes from sequence to sequence without any attention on how one event transpires to the other. There is no character development because everything that needs to exist within the film already does, and stays the way it is.

And just because you can analyze it doesn't mean it's deep. All you can do the more you watch a Tarantino film is gained appreciation for Tarantino's technical excellence. You can't watch Pulp Fiction 40 times and do anything besides guess what the true order of the events are. You cannot watch Reservoir Dogs 40 times and know more about anything that happens than you did the first time. Maybe you'll notice the fact that Tarantino put a few orange items in a scene in indicate that Orange was the rat, but that isn't depth, that's just an Easter egg.

Somebody with high standards will appreciate the timing and calibur of Tarantino's dialogue. They will appreciate his camera work. They will appreciate the impeccable editing job that Sally Menke gave every Tarantino film. In Kill Bill they will appreciate the fight scenes and how Tarantino's sense of kinetic motion pretty much rapes James Cameron's and Micheal Bay's, but that's it. Each Tarantino film is a masterpiece, but that doesn't make them art. They're Post-Modern pulp roller-coasters and nothing more.

[freeblooper]

Yeah he pretty much uses cool ideas to make cool shit as far as I can tell

He didn't have to include the 4 or so symbolic deaths in Kill Bill but he did because symbolic deaths are awesome

just like sword fights punctuated by pop culture references, and sympathetic characters getting smoked by MORE sympathetic characters like it is no big deal

[prooker]

Sure you can analyze them more then their technical prowess. The theme of Pulp Fiction has to do with American nihilism and the loss of true meaning in our lives. No character development? The development of Jules and whoever Bruce Willis was named.

What do Jules and Vincent talk about? Seemingly meaningless pop culture references. It's how they measure the value in their lives, where once there was religion that most people back in da day turned to. It's about how we uphold the pop icon. The restaraunt scene wasn't just there for style after all. God damn Buddy Holly was serving their food while Marilyn Monroes served foods on a platter.

The psalm that Jules repeats before killing? It's about how to judge your actions based on a system of values, a system that Jules later realizes is non existent in his life. Jules quotes the Bible as a moral schtick but it really doesnt mean a damn thing, he could be quoting Woody Allen for all it matters.

And the suitcase? Does it matter what's in the suitcase? Nope. Just a glorified plot device. All that matters is what people will do to get the suitcase.

[prooker]

Anyways that's the great thing about art you can look at all these things but you can also just call it a crock of bullshit and take it as it is haha

[prooker]

Also every time someone goes in the bathroom shit goes down and they exit to an extremely different scene. If Vincent didn't go in to the bathroom reading his shitty "Pulp Fiction" (get it he's in the bathroom actually reading Pulp Fiction) he doesn't get killed. What does that say?

Something for sure right? or not who knows haha

[f]

/comment about how there is no guidebook that defines what is and what isn't art blah blah

[Muffin Mage]

Pulp Fiction is the common man's Blue Velvet. There. I said it.

[Gatsby]

Sure you can analyze them more then their technical prowess. The theme of Pulp Fiction has to do with American nihilism and the loss of true meaning in our lives. No character development? The development of Jules and whoever Bruce Willis was named.

What do Jules and Vincent talk about? Seemingly meaningless pop culture references. It's how they measure the value in their lives, where once there was religion that most people back in da day turned to. It's about how we uphold the pop icon. The restaraunt scene wasn't just there for style after all. God damn Buddy Holly was serving their food while Marilyn Monroes served foods on a platter.

The psalm that Jules repeats before killing? It's about how to judge your actions based on a system of values, a system that Jules later realizes is non existent in his life. Jules quotes the Bible as a moral schtick but it really doesnt mean a damn thing, he could be quoting Woody Allen for all it matters.

And the suitcase? Does it matter what's in the suitcase? Nope. Just a glorified plot device. All that matters is what people will do to get the suitcase.

I didn't say that Pulp Fiction had no character development, I said that Kill Bill has no character development. I say that with the possible exception of Inglorious Basterds, none of Tarantino's movies mean anything.

I don't think anything you've said is remotely convincing. It is analysis, but it's not based in anything I've seen in my repeated Pulp Fiction viewings. All you are stating is basic explanation of character action. All you're doing is taking what happened on the screen and novelizing it. That isn't analysis, or as you put it "containing layers that take multiple viewings to unfurl". All of these things are readily apparent as the movie happens and no further analysis is needed to delve into this.

In a book like The Great Gatsby, you can look at Gatsby reaching towards the green light as symbolism for Gatsby's hopes and dreams because the novel constantly reinforces that symbolism through color, and through Daisy being in the direction of that.

However, if Daisy lived nowhere near that peer and the light was replaced with an orange blimp, it's still possible to attribute some random meaning to that blimp, but if the novel doesn't constantly add to or revisit that, then it's as meaningless as any other orange blimp.

As I've said, Tarantino is an excellent writer and director, and it's possible that some of the themes you mentioned were at least somewhere in the back of his mind when he was writing the script, but the end product wasn't a script interested in exploring these themes. It's a script that wants to explore Tarantino talk about dead ****** storage and postmortem cleanups. It is a script that is focused on long conversational scenes that end with dance scenes that have absolutely zero significance to anything other than general viewer curiosity. As I've said, it's a masterpiece and Tarantino's films are always high among my favorites. I'm not even saying they're not art, I'm just saying that primarily, they're entertainment.

[symuun]

Without wishing to get too deeply into the debate at this particular moment, I'd point out that what the author intended doesn't really have a great deal of bearing on how art is interpreted these days.

I'll have more things to say when I'm sober, I suspect.

[prooker]

Pulp Fiction is the common man's Blue Velvet. There. I said it.

Blue Velvet is ****ing great

Gatsby: As much as I would like to keep debating about Tarantino films and classic novels I know this is just going to end up with both of us having not changed our minds at the least about our opinions I'll leave it there.

I don't actually get your point though. Symbolism doesn't need to be heavy handed or revisited to be symbolic.

Is your point that symbolism can't be through character actions?

Symuun: Totally. Once it's out of the author's typewriter and in a format for public consumption the authors intent doesn't matter. It's the reader's interpretation that does, even if the reader chooses to try to see how the writer tried to get across it's still the readers interpretation.

[Gatsby]

Anyway, the author's intent is the only thing that's important in interpretation. As I've said, anybody can interpret whatever the hell they want based on looking at any random thing. That doesn't mean what they're saying isn't bullshit, it just means that they don't personally think it's bullshit.

If you want whatever you're saying to have baring, then author intent and the author themselves(as in say, exploring the authors life to find concurrent themes with a novel) are the only things that matter.

[prooker]

Bullshit

[Gatsby]

The Great Gatsby is really about a secret Alien war, with Gatsby as an ambitious and devious Alien warlord and Tom and Daisy being the King and Queen of a falling empire that is hidden in the basement of their New York home.

None of anything written in the book supports this, and Fitzgerald clearly wrote the characters as humans within a human, non alien conflict, but none of what's actually part of the plot or present due to what the author put onto the actual pages really matters at all, and my interpretation is the only thing that matters.

[freeblooper]

Hey do you guys remember that part in Armageddon where the drill guys HAVE TO JUMP THE DRILL CAR OVER AN ASTEROID CANYON that was pretty cool

[Gatsby]

I don't get what you're saying.

[prooker]

He's saying it was pretty cool

I am INCLINED to agree

[prooker]

The Great Gatsby is really about a secret Alien war, with Gatsby as an ambitious and devious Alien warlord and Tom and Daisy being the King and Queen of a falling empire that is hidden in the basement of their New York home.

None of anything written in the book supports this, and Fitzgerald clearly wrote the characters as humans within a human, non alien conflict, but none of what's actually part of the plot or present due to what the author put onto the actual pages really matters at all, and my interpretation is the only thing that matters.

Yes your interpretation is the most important thing to you. Not the same for everyone.

There is no right meaning.

[Gatsby]

Yes your interpretation is the most important thing to you. Not the same for everyone.

We aren't talking about importance though, we're talking about validity. If an author intends to send a message out and people come to a different conclusion, it usually represents a failure on the author's part.

For example, in American Psycho, some bad editing made some people think that the events of the film happened within the narrator's head. While many people thought that, the director when out and said that that was not the case, and marked the fact that people thought otherwise as the film's largest failure.

It's stupid to think that viewer/reader interpretation matters in anything that isn't directly meant to have the reader interpret things. There are some things that are set in the story, and there are some things you can interpret.

You can interpret the end of Neon Genesis Evangelion to reach your own conclusion, but in The Great Gatsby, there is a fixed conclusion and a fixed message.

[prooker]

Well I see once again we disagree

[prooker]

On another note I've been reading Ranma 1/2

The art is great

[Gatsby]

Well I see once again we disagree

oh no anything but that

[ifm2181]

Yes... yes! This thread has come alive!

Also
Piranha 3D

**** yeah that movie was hilarious

[Tom]

what the author intended doesn't really have a great deal of bearing on how art is interpreted

That pretty much puts a nice waxy seal on the whole discussion. If there's one thing I've learned in the many years I've spent desperately trying to capture lightning in a bottle, it's that most artistry occurs almost by complete accident. When an artist begins exploiting a formula they've discovered to make hit after hit after hit, then you start getting stagnant bullshit

The best stuff I've ever written is petty much shit that fell out of my head when I wasn't looking, and the shit I've tortured myself over during careful planning turns into ash in my hands. From what I've learned studying other artists, it's that this is not an uncommon phenomenon. I think any storytelling artist who isn't leaning too precariously over the chasm of self righteousness--like Wile E. Coyote might lean precariously (http://www.mannahattamamma.com/coyoteedge.jpg) over an actual chasm while chasing Road Runner (see U2)--will find it's best to tell their story first, and worry about art second, because if they really hit it at the right angle, art will happen all on its own

tl;dr art is an accident

edit Upon further contemplation though this may just be an excuse I tell myself in the mirror every morning, my eyes bruised and flesh wan, trying to stave off a complete emotional and mental breakdown over the fact that my "accidents" so rarely happen

[symuun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_author

The author doesn't matter. There is no definitive interpretation of any text. That's not to say any text can be interpreted in any way, but the author's intentions don't lend any extra weight because we can't know what the author's true intentions are. If there's evidence within a film to argue that it all happened inside one character's head, then that's a valid interpretation whether or not the director intended it to be.

[ifm2181]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_author

The author doesn't matter. There is no definitive interpretation of any text. That's not to say any text can be interpreted in any way, but the author's intentions don't lend any extra weight because we can't know what the author's true intentions are. If there's evidence within a film to argue that it all happened inside one character's head, then that's a valid interpretation whether or not the director intended it to be.
Unless the author is social and mentions intentions to people.

[Gatsby]

That's not to say any text can be interpreted in any way.

But that's essentially what you're saying. If there is no definitive way to interpret, then anything can be definitive and my "The Great Gatsby is about aliens" theory is just as sound and valid as any scholarly analysis. You're essentially saying that nothing means anything because whatever facts are established within the text don't hold any water despite the author putting them down.

[prooker]

Definitive interpratations are boring anyways

[Tom]

But that's essentially what you're saying. If there is no definitive way to interpret, then anything can be definitive and my "The Great Gatsby is about aliens" theory is just as sound and valid as any scholarly analysis. You're essentially saying that nothing means anything because whatever facts are established within the text don't hold any water despite the author putting them down.

Why not?

[symuun]

I don't know The Great Gatsby well enough to comment on your example, but for another one, let's look at the proposition that High School Musical is in fact a Communist political work.

-Everybody wears red.
-The huge group dance routines can be seen as a representation of the submission of the self to the collective will.
-The rich girl is evil.

There are certainly arguments against that point of view. But whatever Disney's authors-by-committee intended, it's one possible interpretation of the text.

And yes, I know I'm provoking an argument here.

[prooker]

If you want to make the Great Gatsby to be about aliens than fine, but it's all about how you SUPPORT your explanation within the text.

Giving the reason "because that's what the author intended" is not a good reason.

There is no definitive interpretations, only more universally accepted ones.

[Gatsby]

I don't know The Great Gatsby well enough to comment on your example, but for another one, let's look at the proposition that High School Musical is in fact a Communist political work.

-Everybody wears red.
-The huge group dance routines can be seen as a representation of the submission of the self to the collective will.
-The rich girl is evil.

There are certainly arguments against that point of view. But whatever Disney's authors-by-committee intended, it's one possible interpretation of the text.

And yes, I know I'm provoking an argument here.

Again, that is an interpretation, but as I've said, that doesn't mean it isn't 100% bullshit. All of the support you've offered is garbage. If you look at the creator, being Disney, you'll find that they are an incredibly capitalist company that promotes the exploitation of every property they've ever created in a blind rush to earn as much capital as possible. It cannot be a communist work because everything about it stinks of Disney's commerce.

What is the moral of your communist interpretation? How do you explain the fact that wealth wise, Troy is not in that lower of a class than the rich girl? How do you explain what appears to be Troy and Gabriella's mad quest to gain capital for themselves, and how can the dance sequences constitute a submission to a singular group will when the high school is actually made out of several different factions that are all carrying their own varying interests? Are they all just sub groups of communists fighting against each other to gain capital through their singing and dancing?

The fact is that you considered none of these when creating your examples, and everything that you could come up with to try and argue otherwise is only you grasping for clues to support a theory that you made before you actually fully looked what was in the product. Basically, your side is like Creationism. You pulled your examples out of nothing just to say that you could use them, just as I did with my "Great Gatsby is about aliens" theory.


If you want to make the Great Gatsby to be about aliens than fine, but it's all about how you SUPPORT your explanation within the text.

Giving the reason "because that's what the author intended" is not a good reason.

There is no definitive interpretations, only more universally accepted ones.

Nobody is talking about the author's inner desire. I've only been talking about using what the author has put into the text in order to draw you to the conclusion that the author wants you to get to. The things that lead to the definitive interpretation are left there by the author for the viewer to piece together, and the only way that multiple theories can stem from that is either through narrative failure, or multiple explanations all explaining the same thing.

[prooker]

Nobody is talking about the author's inner desire. I've only been talking about using what the author has put into the text in order to draw you to the conclusion that the author wants you to get to.

How is that not the author's intent

[Gatsby]

You can't just dance around having to actually make arguments forever.

[prooker]

Hey I've already made my argument brotato, I am not dancing I don't even know how to salsa

You can ignore my argument all you want but you haven't said anything different in your last post

We can go around and around like this forever but it's pretty much

THERE ARE NO DEFINITIVE MEANINGS AUTHOR'S INTENT MEANS NOTHING

AUTHOR'S INTENT IS THE ONLY THING AND MOST IMPORTANT

This isn't changing no matter how many blocks of text you type

[Tom]

the only way that multiple theories can stem from that is either through narrative failure, or multiple explanations all explaining the same thing.

Sorry man but that is the absolute worst stance to hold when regarding a storytelling medium. If you limit yourself to only accepting one possible theme or intent in a story at the exclusion of all else, you might as well take your imagination out back, nurse it with the barrel of a shotgun, and liquify its tender skull

I don't care if the author hands you a twelve hundred page booklet explaining what they intended and why anyone who sees anything else is retarded, it's just bad for a mind's creative growth. Thinking outside the box, regarding a story from a different angle than the one suggested, finding new ways to interpret a work; this is the key to creation. How can you possibly hope to create something out of nothing when you only pay attention to the opinion of someone else, creator or not?

[Gatsby]

That's all pretty much nonsense.

I can ask you the same question. If you believe that as an author, you have no control or bearing over the themes of what you're writing, then why bother creating anything at all? Seems to me that if that's the case, then all author effort is pointless. Why bother putting the effort into making the pacing of a scene perfect if the scene doesn't even exist in the way you envision it? Why bother developing characters at all when every action they make can be interpreted in a way that's outside of the actual action you put in? Why encompass themes into your story when what you want the story to be about doesn't matter? Why include plot when the entirety of what's written is subject to bullshit metaphors that have no basis in anything that you've painstakingly worked on?

Writing is about author control. Imagination is a tool. Description is a tool. The way you spell things out is a tool and the way you leave things open is a tool as well. The way all these different tools and tropes are used constitutes the writing process. It is not some flowery field of imagination where the sky is the limit and anything and everything is true. It is a long process where every word that exists on the page is painstakingly chosen one way or another for the different ways it can affect and evoke things. It isn't easy to use all of these tools and create a story with characters we care about, words that flow, and conflicts that excite us.

It's completely asinine to say that one method requires imagination when the other doesn't. There is work that is subject to interpretation and there is work that isn't. Sometimes I like creating the latter, sometimes I like creating the former, but you have to acknowledge that both of them exist and that both of them are very separate things, with good books, films, and albums existing on both sides.

[freeblooper]

I don't understand the point that you think everybody else is making...

It seems to not exist

[Colonel Farts]

anime sucks and nerds complain about it, more news following 11

[prooker]

When you decide to publish something to be seen by a general public you've got to come to terms with the fact that not everyone will see it the way that you wanted them to see it. You can't control that no matter how hard you try. It doesn't take away from your intent and hard work at crafting something specific, and some people will see it how you envisioned. But others won't and if they can support their theories then great, it just adds another layer to the work, even if it's one that you didn't envision. And you don't need to acknowledge them, but you can't stop other people from accepting that theory if it's convincing enough.

[Tom]

It is not some flowery field of imagination where the sky is the limit and anything and everything is true. It is a long process where every word that exists on the page is painstakingly chosen one way or another for the different ways it can affect and evoke things.

When I stop trying to keep an iron grip on everything I write, the product is vastly superior. This is not a unique phenomenon. Iron moderation to your creative flow is a detriment to the process. Stories evolve. Style evolves. Themes evolve. If your process is painstaking, then you're doing it wrong. That's just the way it is brah

[freeblooper]

Can't you guys just write essays or something?

[Gatsby]

I understand that. I understand that people will have other theories. I'm just saying that if I do publish any work, and I do find terrible theories on it, I would unbuckle my pants and let a massive shit all over it, and I would seek out the people who actually found out what I intended to do and really got it, and I would look at it as a success because I succeeded in conveying what I wanted to convey. If people began to be convinced that my work was something that I did not intend it to be, I would mark it as a personal failure and would only use their theories to mark what I did wrong so I could avoid it in the future.

I'm reminded of how The Beatles are constantly baffled by the fan theories that circle all of their songs. People write essays dissecting Beatles songs, attempting to grasp to any meaning they can interpret, and people like Ringo Star just shrug and say "We just got high and wrote shit, none of it means anything."

So you have an actual member of the creative process admitting that the songs mean absolutely nothing, but you still have people going around claiming that there are clues of Paul's death in this song, and that this song is about how The Beatles hate the police and how this other song is about acid because it's euphoric sounding, and it the constant grasping for straws never ends. It doesn't enhance The Beatles work, because as Ringo Star says, the songs are still about nothing. It's great the people will look at these works and be inspired to make their own theories about them.

Back when I was first listening to The Wall, I talked to Symuun about my theories on what it was about. I thought Goodbye Blue Sky was about some type of nuclear event killing a bunch of people and resulting in a post apocolyptic state. Turns out that it was really about the bombings of England during World War II.

Once I found that out, I abandoned my interpretations because while they were good theories at the time, after I found out what it really was, I could never listen to it again and think that it was anything other than what it was. There are other parts of The Wall that people can still argue over. What happens at the end? What was the deal with The Trial, was that real? Does Pink break out at the end? Does the cycle repeat itself with a new Wall being built?

These things can be discussed and debated. What you cannot debate, is how Another Brick in the Wall part 2 is about the follies of England's education system. That is what Roger Waters wrote it as. That is what the lyrics support. That is what the video sequence in The Wall movie also supports. You'll notice that once the movie gets to The Trial, animation takes over and you're asking the same questions as you were in the album. That isn't by accident.

When I stop trying to keep an iron grip on everything I write, the product is vastly superior. This is not a unique phenomenon. Iron moderation to your creative flow is a detriment to the process. Stories evolve. Style evolves. Themes evolve. If your process is painstaking, then you're doing it wrong. That's just the way it is brah

Only when you're writing a first draft. Once you get to the editing, control is the only thing that matters. Think otherwise, and you'll end up like George R.R. Martin, stuck in the middle of a gigantic mess that you inspired your way into and can't get out of because you couldn't buckle down and outline where you were going.

The fact is that you and I are amateur writers. The reason that "letting the story take us somewhere" leads to better products is because we're too lazy to actually outline well and stick with a story that we can continue to build upon overtime. However, that time of inspiration and "imaginative flowery field flowing" is a tiny, tiny part of the process, and you and I know better than anything that abiding by it only leads to long, long patches of nothing to show.

[prooker]

See I get that's what you're getting at bro, and I understand it but I simply don't agree with it

Doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong but well, we just don't agree on it. We just have two different structures at looking at this thing

[prooker]

Anyways I forgot how we got to this from Animu

[f]

I agree with firecheetah and prooker. Writing goes from being something enjoyable to being an arduous task that you may not like anymore if you spend all of your time trying to control every single aspect of what you're doing. Everything I write, I being with the idea and where I want it to go. Everything in between just forms as I go. That's generally the process that my short stories take.

It's fine to want to make sure your readers see the point you're trying to make in your work, but it's not the end of the world if it's interpreted differently. In fact, I think it makes your work a lot more exciting if multiple theories can be pulled from it. If I can spark all sorts of thoughts in my reader about what I may have been trying to do, or if they find something cool I did that I didn't notice before, then I consider my work a success.

EDIT: I get the feeling, Gatsby, that you're looking at writing from a critical standpoint, where getting people to see your point is the overall goal. I'm not sure if that's really the case for creative writing - though I'm sure that some writers utilize that. Control doesn't matter to me at all in my editing process. I just go through and make sure that things flow well, that descriptions make sense. Maybe that's what you consider control, but I wouldn't call it that.

[freeblooper]

Ok cool now Tom you write your essay

[prooker]

freeboober you still have not friended me on facebook

[freeblooper]

I don't know your last name Gabe

I am not even sure that your first name is Gabe

[prooker]

I don't know much about you either fb

I am not totally convinced you are not just a sentient dog freebooter

[Tom]

I've never written an essay in my life

I'm more of a "hit random keys until it makes sense" kind of guy

I am actually completely illiterate

[f]

It's because of your furry tendencies

[prooker]

/fiction just POURS from his fingertips

[Gatsby]

I agree with firecheetah and prooker. Writing goes from being something enjoyable to being an arduous task that you may not like anymore if you spend all of your time trying to control every single aspect of what you're doing. Everything I write, I being with the idea and where I want it to go. Everything in between just forms as I go. That's generally the process that my short stories take.

It's fine to want to make sure your readers see the point you're trying to make in your work, but it's not the end of the world if it's interpreted differently. In fact, I think it makes your work a lot more exciting if multiple theories can be pulled from it. If I can spark all sorts of thoughts in my reader about what I may have been trying to do, or if they find something cool I did that I didn't notice before, then I consider my work a success.

EDIT: I get the feeling, Gatsby, that you're looking at writing from a critical standpoint, where getting people to see your point is the overall goal. I'm not sure if that's really the case for creative writing - though I'm sure that some writers utilize that. Control doesn't matter to me at all in my editing process. I just go through and make sure that things flow well, that descriptions make sense. Maybe that's what you consider control, but I wouldn't call it that.

Yeah, but a lot of your views are directly involved with why you or none of us have finished a novel. 90% of writing is work, 10% of it is fun. That's just how it is.

And again, different caliburs of work exist. If you're just telling a simple story, only concerned with certain events, then control isn't as important. I'd argue that without control, you'll never get anything done. To be a successful writer, you have to write all the time. Even when you don't want to. I love Writing, but I don't love it at all the time. As I noted, if I waited for writing to be 100% enjoyable before I did it, I'd never get anything done. It's more about discipline than it is joy and more about control than it is inspiration. That's the way I see it. Going about it the other way just leads to unproductivity and problems.

[Tom]

And again, different caliburs of work exist. If you're just telling a simple story, only concerned with certain events, then control isn't as important. I'd argue that without control, you'll never get anything done. To be a successful writer, you have to write all the time. Even when you don't want to. I love Writing, but I don't love it at all the time. As I noted, if I waited for writing to be 100% enjoyable before I did it, I'd never get anything done. It's more about discipline than it is joy and more about control than it is inspiration. That's the way I see it. Going about it the other way just leads to unproductivity and problems.

I totally agree with all that, and I don't think there's a soul here who has good work ethic. NOBODY should disagree with that, and if they do then I think they need a word or two yawmean

Work ethic isn't the original disagreement though. I'm not sure how we got to that but yeah whatever. Anyway. Theme and story evolution are natural things that I don't think can really be dictated. I mean, maybe I'm just a piece of shit, but whenever I go into a story thinking, "Okay, this story will be about THE HUMAN SPIRIT told through clever metaphor" it always ends up turning into something else, usually through addition to my original intent rather than full alteration

Not only that but people have come up to me after reading something I've written and said "Hey man that was so cool how you compared corporate greed to the plight of the small farms" and at first I'm like "Dude I wrote a story about goblins and airplanes as a clever metaphor for THE HUMAN SPIRIT" but I can't help but smile cause GOD DAMN who am I to argue with this douche bag talking about farms. I believe their interpretation is part of the story's evolution, just as much as the actual writing process. The spirit of the story does not stop when I hit Ctrl+S after my final edits.

I guess my point is that art--ANY art--is meant to entertain, first and foremost. To be created, and shown to someone else so that they may enjoy it

That last part is the caveat here. Everyone enjoys things differently. Everyone is entertained by different things. I think it's unfair to potentially strip away the entertainment of the reader just to satisfy whatever dumb message I wanted my story to portray. Honestly, most of the time? The original messages in these stories are dumb anyway. Most artists are egotistical douche bags and they should take their intent and shove it up their asses

[freeblooper]

Hey remember the time that I left a thread specifically dedicated to finishing short stories UNfinished

[Tom]

Yes and it was basically the best thread ever

[ifm2181]

I agree with firecheetah and prooker. Writing goes from being something enjoyable to being an arduous task that you may not like anymore if you spend all of your time trying to control every single aspect of what you're doing. Everything I write, I being with the idea and where I want it to go. Everything in between just forms as I go. That's generally the process that my short stories take.
Ditto. When I go back to edit it later, then I worry about having shit making sense.

[Tom]

I agree with Gatsby very strongly on that front, as it is linked with work ethic. Writing is, like it or not, WORK. There are times where it sucks and you can't just stop writing because it sucks

However there are ways to go about this. It doesn't have to suck and be a ****ing ulcer-inducing grind. You should never see any creative endeavor as something painful, and if you do I strongly advise you to rethink what you're doing because you aren't being fair to yourself. However, you will still struggle no matter what, with the simple fact that to create you must do, and most amateurs have a lot of trouble with that do part. Clay pointed out one of my favored tactics to help cope: To simply write a lot of shit that looks awful with the intent of making it look better later

Some wildmen--their eyes deadened with the insanity-inducing sights they've witnessed, their teeth chipped and sharpened from cracking human femurs for their delicious marrow--call this a "rough draft." It is a good thing, tragically ignored in the sport of amateur writing, and in this context it is for the sake of expedience and stress relief

Edit How can I disagree with people on the same topic that they agree with me on? How is that even possible? I JUST DID IT. They call me... Dr. Hypocrisy B)

[ifm2181]

I find it easier once you have bare-bones ideas to just hurry through the story and get them all down. by the time that ends, you likely get more, and you can keep layering stuff on until it becomes relatively coherent.

[Tom]

Yeah post production is post production, y'know? There is some shit that you just really should save for later

Which is why I find myself so against posting work online. There IS no post production--it's all LIVE! And it makes you never finish your ****ing story because you're too busy trying to make each post look perfect. So inefficient!

[prooker]

And it totally applies to all kinds of art. You have GOT to practice your music, you just can't expect to put down your instrument for two months and start busting out fly fresh improvised solos with ease, most likely you will be rusty as ****.

That doesn't mean you can't have fun practicing though, I ****ing love it most of the time

[Tom]

Man, **** you. I would give up all the tiny, atrophied scraps of writing ability I may have in a HEART BEAT for the patience and skill to play music

Like no lie. **** writing.

[bored_1]

And it totally applies to all kinds of art. You have GOT to practice your music, you just can't expect to put down your instrument for two months and start busting out fly fresh improvised solos with ease, most likely you will be rusty as ****.

That doesn't mean you can't have fun practicing though, I ****ing love it most of the time

**** you Prooker. I haven't played my guitar because it's in Florida and you just reminded me how it's going to feel when I get back. :glare:

[prooker]

Man, **** you. I would give up all the tiny, atrophied scraps of writing ability I may have in a HEART BEAT for the patience and skill to play music

Like no lie. **** writing.

Sounds like SOMEONE needs the Robot Devil's hands

[ifm2181]

Yeah post production is post production, y'know? There is some shit that you just really should save for later

Which is why I find myself so against posting work online. There IS no post production--it's all LIVE! And it makes you never finish your ****ing story because you're too busy trying to make each post look perfect. So inefficient!

Yeah, I'm still at like 8 versions of some shit because I keep revising it

paperless society works for once!

[f]

Yeah, but a lot of your views are directly involved with why you or none of us have finished a novel. 90% of writing is work, 10% of it is fun. That's just how it is.

And again, different caliburs of work exist. If you're just telling a simple story, only concerned with certain events, then control isn't as important. I'd argue that without control, you'll never get anything done. To be a successful writer, you have to write all the time. Even when you don't want to. I love Writing, but I don't love it at all the time. As I noted, if I waited for writing to be 100% enjoyable before I did it, I'd never get anything done. It's more about discipline than it is joy and more about control than it is inspiration. That's the way I see it. Going about it the other way just leads to unproductivity and problems.

I have a feeling that when you say control here, you're thinking more of drive/motivation. Might just be me though.

Anyway, I don't think I ever said that writing wasn't work. Work can be fun at times. It's just if you spend so much time trying to "control" the little things in your writing it becomes too much and overwhelms you.

[Muffin Mage]

I'm skipping about thirty posts here, but I have to say that the author's intended interpretation isn't the only legitimate one. Modern critical theory laughs in the face of such a claim. First, yes, there is the surface level of the work, then the author's deliberately structured meaning. After that, you can read the author's biases based on what is emphasized or ignored. I can't really concentrate to work all this out because boobies, but, yeah.

[☆Ezhno☆]

Maybe it's just the school of literary criticism I was raised in, but I was always guided into focusing on the text as the text without any regard for what the author wanted or was thinking when s/he wrote it. You can attempt to discover and justify intent based on some evidence, but ultimately the only way to know what the author's intent was is to ask the author, and when you study classics... well good luck resurrecting Ovid so you can get his 2 cents on the Metamorphosis.

[Muffin Mage]

Actually, you'd be surprised at how much you can get out of Ovid with him dead two thousand-odd years. It's only in the last twenty years or so that what I wrote my thesis on - Pythagoras' place in the Metamorphoses - has come into critical observation. There is still a case to be made that the Ars Amatoria was not the work that got Ovid exiled- Tristia 2 made that case while he was in exile, and I would argue that the Metamorphoses was the reason precisely because Pythagoras has a prominent role in it. The favored Augustan poets, that is to say Virgil and Horace, took up Neo-Platonist philosophies in their writings- Stoicism and Epicureanism, respectively. Neo-Platonism in general is directed inwardly, because they arose in the post-Alexander Hellenistic Age when politics and external efficacy in general stopped being a thing. Pythagoreanism, however, belongs to an older tradition where the perfection of the individual has a direct and substantial effect on the perfection of the state. This, of course, directly undermines Augustus' message of the Pax Romana that endures forever. And so forth and so on. Sorry for the ramble, I drank most of two quarts of beer. So, yeah.